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Cvar busted cheaters
16. September 2006 - 12:17
#11
Cvar busted cheaters
so who had the power to ban or unban the cheaters . Server admins ?
Its hard to change the opinion of any person and dunno if all will agree to ban or unban them so better make a poll . I think its fair for all of us to vote not only some guys to take decisions in this case .
16. September 2006 - 12:33
#12
Cvar busted cheaters
Zero tolerance is the way to go.There were cases where ppl got of the hook just for beeing well known and respected [up to that point] members of this community,thus given them a 2nd chance.IMO that was wrong to do,but I didnt say anything cause I know it wouldnt make a difference.
@Kraster: Only server owners can unban
16. September 2006 - 13:00
#13
Germany
Cvar busted cheaters
Quote:
="WAX"@raven I don’t agree the longer the person has played the less tolerant I would be
i wont give people like freak a second chance i just would give the people that played for over big time a second chance
16. September 2006 - 15:10
#14
Cvar busted cheaters
Exactly the opposite should be done,persons that play longer should be banned for good without any discussion,cause they are experienced players and know very well what are the consequences of cheating.Its also unfair to give some players a 2nd chance and to others not.Like I said,zero tolerance for all.As for noobs,I dont buy that "I didnt know what I was doing cause I'm a noob" crap.To cheat u need to either modify a cvar either download files from the net and put them to your quake dir,so if u know how to do that,ure not a noob.
17. September 2006 - 20:27
#16
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adfadf
zero tolerance...in other words intolerance?.....its pretty simple isnt it....if pb catches anyone with a cheating cvar or whatever u just ban him for life...from every single server.....really easy for us to say that..
but for one moment think about this....for a guy whos new to quake ...does he know what pb is? does he know what the commands are in quake? in almost every case the answer would be no....take my case....i had played quake in single player mode for 2 or 3 months then quit it...then i took it up again when my hostel installed a lan..for one year i played quake on the lan with other players, who btw were very good, and for the one year the word cheating NEVER entered our dictionary...we were a happy community of about 50 people all of us who knew each other by face and most of us knew each other pretty well and we never had problems with cheating...strange isnt it?....and then i quit quake again for one year and then when i start playing again i find myself part of this community which is obsessed with the whole cheating issue....cant blame it...but then do we really need to be obsessed with this..?
i can understand if people consistently cheated in cws...i can understand if 20 percent say of all the players on public servers were cheating....but that really isnt the case is it?...so here we are, in a community where what 5 percent maybe even less of the members cheat....and we are talking about ZERO tolerance....sorry i dont agree....because ive seen people who are "noobs" and who blindly copy configs...ive seen people who play quake illegally with downloaded pak0 files, in fact ive seen people whove just copied their entire quake version from somebody they havent even heard of....are we to then condemn all these people just because they didnt know better?....who gave us the right to decide for ourselves that if somebody makes a mistake then they should be globally banned for life? who gave us the right to say hey u should have known better? who gave us the right to say we dont care about ur intentions, we have decided that they dont matter...all that matters is that u got caught by pb?
17. September 2006 - 21:41
#17
Re: adfadf
Quote:
"vroomfoondel"zero tolerance...in other words intolerance?.....its pretty simple isnt it....if pb catches anyone with a cheating cvar or whatever u just ban him for life...from every single server.....really easy for us to say that..but for one moment think about this....for a guy whos new to quake ...does he know what pb is? does he know what the commands are in quake? in almost every case the answer would be no....take my case....i had played quake in single player mode for 2 or 3 months then quit it...then i took it up again when my hostel installed a lan..for one year i played quake on the lan with other players, who btw were very good, and for the one year the word cheating NEVER entered our dictionary...we were a happy community of about 50 people all of us who knew each other by face and most of us knew each other pretty well and we never had problems with cheating...strange isnt it?....and then i quit quake again for one year and then when i start playing again i find myself part of this community which is obsessed with the whole cheating issue....cant blame it...but then do we really need to be obsessed with this..?
i can understand if people consistently cheated in cws...i can understand if 20 percent say of all the players on public servers were cheating....but that really isnt the case is it?...so here we are, in a community where what 5 percent maybe even less of the members cheat....and we are talking about ZERO tolerance....sorry i dont agree....because ive seen people who are "noobs" and who blindly copy configs...ive seen people who play quake illegally with downloaded pak0 files, in fact ive seen people whove just copied their entire quake version from somebody they havent even heard of....are we to then condemn all these people just because they didnt know better?....who gave us the right to decide for ourselves that if somebody makes a mistake then they should be globally banned for life? who gave us the right to say hey u should have known better? who gave us the right to say we dont care about ur intentions, we have decided that they dont matter...all that matters is that u got caught by pb?
Quote:
"WAX"I’m not really referring noobs who don’t know better(perhaps).my zero tolerance stance is for people who do know better, and exactly what they are doing, freak is a good example he had played for a while before he got caught. He chose to cheat imo
@raven I don’t agree the longer the person has played the less tolerant I would be
well this was and is my opinion, i own one server and i will apply this to it i cant vouch for anyone else.
17. September 2006 - 23:16
#18
Cvar busted cheaters
Quote:
i start playing again i find myself part of this community which is obsessed with the whole cheating issue....cant blame it...but then do we really need to be obsessed with this..?
If you hadn't noticed, this is a relatively small community. Larger ones like CPMA or OSP could care less about the odd cheater or two popping up now and then. E+ can't afford to care less.
Some simple facts - most of the public servers are pb and pure 0. This is the metaphorical equivelance of putting up a big neon "DL some cheating shit and HF here!". The thing is, that even one single cheater isn't going to go unnoticed here, hell, some of them have become sort of famous... anyhoo, even such one small cheater can spoil in a days work the fun of half of the active community, just jumping from server to server, and this is bad. So i wouldn't call this obsession, it's more like vigilance.
Quote:
because ive seen people who are "noobs" and who blindly copy configs...ive seen people who play quake illegally with downloaded pak0 files, in fact ive seen people whove just copied their entire quake version from somebody they havent even heard of....are we to then condemn all these people just because they didnt know better?....
This comes down to the admins - are they trustfull enough to believe all the "evil brother/warezed q3/wtf i dunno" etc stories. I wouldn't. But then again, it's not my call. IMO there are newbs who just wanna play, sure. But they could give a little damn about what's in their games guts. I mean, common. You are smart enough to configure the game, find it on net, dl it, install it thru an image or whatever, but aren't smart enough to dig up a little basic info about it on the net? That's lazy and sloppy.
Quote:
who gave us the right to decide for ourselves that if somebody makes a mistake then they should be globally banned for life? who gave us the right to say hey u should have known better? who gave us the right to say we dont care about ur intentions, we have decided that they dont matter...all that matters is that u got caught by pb?
People who pay with their own money for the server said newbs have fun on have ALL THE GODDAM RIGHT to decide who and how plays their servers. It's their house. You play by their rules or get out to play somewhere else, it's that simple.
Just answer me one thing Wonks - how do we decide who is just an ignorant newbie that wanna play the game and dunno's wtf is wrong with his copy of the game and who is using cheats on purpose but is lying us right in the face?
18. September 2006 - 2:19
#19
adf
gah...err ok clarification...im not trying to say here that cheaters should be tolerated...im trying to say that saying "zero tolerance" is simply not right...any community which collectively decides on a "zero tolerance" policy is restricting itself...its a sign of degeneracy...a sign that people arent prepared to think anymore....blind bias...not saying e+ is like that ..hopefully itll never be....
err the questions - who gave us the right was a rhetorical question mad..not a literal one...would you for example say that it would be ok to have a private university which denied admission on the basis of racial bias?..there are some rules that govern even private institutions....not saying its the same thing when a server owner decides to ban someone...(sure the server owner has a right to expect the users to be smart enough to know whats in their game folders...yea in an ideal world i have the right to expect everyone to be polite)....im saying that if a server owner decides to ban anyone found cheating...and ban them for life...to me that server ceases to be public anymore....it becomes simply a private system governed in its own fashion in which i have no say, no way of addressing a problem...
about people who dont put the effort to find out whats going on in their own quake version....theyll never do it unless they have a problem with it..in otherwords they wont check whats in their folder until they get caught cheating ....but then it wont be any use would it cos by then theyre banned anyway...
obsession...u say the community is just vigilant...i swore that i wouldnt let this be personal but i guess i just cant shut up...i joined this community 2 months back....joined up a clan (albeit without knowing anything about the mod or the community) and im having a good time....and then i make friends with a lot of people....and one fine day im told that it's a bad idea to keep on playing without pb....and this from a person who knows just precisely y i cant play with pb...i ask y and im told that some "people" (i dont know who these mysterious people are and i dont want to) feel that i bear observation cos they feel someone whos only played e+ a month and half shouldnt be so good....and they feel maybe im cheating...especially since i cant play pb on....i know i shouldnt let this affect me but its a personal insult when some person who doesnt know me, who doesnt know my history, who doesnt know the fact that i played quake for a year with some of the best players ive seen...just goes ahead and assumes that i shouldnt be good enough cos he/she thinks ive only played for 2 months and im too good....and they wouldnt even ask me about it.....i mean its one thing when somebody approaches me and asks "yo whats the deal with u being so good?"...id have politely told him my history with quake...if he still felt i was suspicious i would have politely told him im sorry u feel that way and if u own a server i shall not play on it until i can play pb on...and that would be that...now tell me u think this is just the community being vigilant?
k i guess im letting this get out of hand....just to make things clear im not saying cheaters shouldnt be banned...im not saying pb should be off/on...im saying there should be a process by which we can address these issues..im saying its good that were giving people second chances..im saying a zero tolerance policy is not right....im really sorry this post is so long but i have a tendency to digres and be verbose....habit...ill try to curb it....feel free to call me whatever u wish to...im ok with that...feel free to pm me if u want to talk..or call me names....my msn id is ....
18. September 2006 - 3:21
#20
Cvar busted cheaters
Quote:
would you for example say that it would be ok to have a private university which denied admission on the basis of racial bias?..there are some rules that govern even private institutions
Of course not. But it's completely different with a server hosted by a private owner - the owner sets all the rules. You can suggest some changes, report administrating mistakes etc. But playing on a server is not you right - it's a privilege. It's something you do for your enjoyment and on a whim, and as such you can only either adjust or find your fun somewhere else. Nothing complicated in that.
Quote:
im saying that if a server owner decides to ban anyone found cheating...and ban them for life...to me that server ceases to be public anymore....it becomes simply a private system governed in its own fashion in which i have no say, no way of addressing a problem...
Let's not generalize. Most E+ server owners are open for suggestions, and are not tyrannical despots who treat their servers as an virtual penis enlargement system. And if they decide to treat the cheaters one way or another? So what? Why does it cease to be a public server anymore? It narrows the public which can attend it, true, but still remains open to anyone else who wants to enter it.
Quote:
about people who dont put the effort to find out whats going on in their own quake version....theyll never do it unless they have a problem with it..in otherwords they wont check whats in their folder until they get caught cheating ....but then it wont be any use would it cos by then theyre banned anyway...
Again, it's only the server owner's call, and it's his decision how far is he willing to trust the words of people who play on his server. And, while this may sound a little harsh from me - but it's ONLY the said player's fault that he failed to take the necessary preparations and precautions before entering a public game. There are zounds of different topics and threads about making your game 100% clean and pure - why should normal, clean players pay for another's lazyness in a spoiled game?
Quote:
now tell me u think this is just the community being vigilant?
No, i call that ignorance and paranoia. There's a thin line between being cautious and being overzealous in a cheater hunt, and whoever is accusing you has apparently crossed it. I dunno why you can't play on a PB server - maybe i can help you solve your problem? I'm willing to try, tho i'm not an expert on this sort of carry on. If you wanna hit me on PM, maybe i can help.
Anyway, it's nigh-on impossible to tell the difference i asked about in my last post's question. What i'm aiming at here, is to maybe make the admins and server owners create some sort of global policy about that sort of thing - no-excuse ban, or a second chance.
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Well, the only real problem is - how the fuck can we judge each and every caught cheater separately? We have absolutely no means to really tell wether said "CoolBoy17" is telling us the truth or is straight out lying, in a weak attempt to save his ass from a ban.
The only thing that is 100% accurate are PB detections. If there is a cheat detected, then there can be no doubt. However, HOW did that cheat got there in the first place, is something no one save maybe for the busted person knows, or can know.
So, is banning everyone equally for everything related, starting from cvar violations to loaded multihacks the only fair thing to do? :scratch: Even if i agree with Torz that it's not black and white, and each individual case has probably many skeletons in the closet, i'm with Wax and Ratz on this one, i think. Unless someone figures out how to check up wether the busted person is telling the truth or lying, without involving biased opinions and helpful friends in the process.