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bla bla bla

the level of skill in e+ is nowhere near as in osp, cpma ra3

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Drill wrote: I heard other like ""if someone defeat me i will pay him''

God, i hate all those assholes that make E+ look bad just coz they think E+ = Mr.Pants, and tagged it with the "4 n00bs" label. If you're one of them, go fck a penguin. Grrr.

I can tell you there are Pant's players that can 0wN some of the top players at E+, and since Mr. Pants Excessive has been here for much longer than E+ there are more experienced players so i don't see how they are n00bs.

Anyways there are good players on each mod and motlikely if they come they'll be owned at E+ but same would happen if you go to their mod where they are used to play and know all the tricks.

Some good points Superbo!

Now the main problem i see with the "e+ is a mod for noobs" is cause people use their own point of view on what "skill" is, and not the mods point of view.

Altough e+ is highly based on baseq3, it is a game in itself.
Basicaly someone comming from baseq3 can only aply his config, and hard earned aim. Every other aspect of gameplay he has to learn from scratch. Like slides, fast weapon switch (hard to learn how to control (ie not just spam, but use effectivly, making every shot count)).

Same would be for a e+ player coming to baseq3 (altough the chance of a e+ player not playing baseq3 before is very low). He would have his config and aim, but would have to learn the very basics of gameplay all from scratch. (map control, strafejumps, etc)

About the ammount of skilled players, i think the ratio is about the same.
Lets say we have 5 über pawners per some 300 very active players. The same ratio is in baseq3 (imo), only a bigger ammount of players = more über pawners

And lastly, in e+ the map played is very important in how much a "non e+" player can do. i guess on dm17 non e+ player have no handicap towards e+ players cause the map lacks the most important aspect of e+, the very difference in thinking and acting - bfg slides.

edit: 17 typos, i need sleep. bad...

Yep, especialy in TDM and Freeze. He can also do ok in 1v1, but he cant do better than OK. He cant be gut wrenching good.

agreed. but thats why i belive e+ and baseq3 are different games. in their very basics.

also to this point, CS players can do really good in e+, ive seen players with 70-80% rail aim, just standing in one place (TRANCE * KO anyone?).

but in 1v1 that aim didnt help him (Trance, that is) vs good move>camp players. He had 80% rail. But he had time to fire only 5 shots...

And it wasnt until he himself became a move>camp player that he became known as one of the very best (i think he got voted as the best newcommer of the last year).

agreed, but moving is an important skill, unfortunatly, only on some maps, and only in 1v1. so generaly, you can say its a waste of time to spend so much time learing that skill when its aplicable only in one gametype and only on about 80% of maps played in that gametype.

my opinion on this is that moving is something many people try, but only the rare few actualy manage. it takes huge ammount of training, and by that i mean map training. you have to make every jump a hundred times in actual game, before you can do it without thinking about it.

a good real world comparison with this could be people who use frontpage to make their websites, and people who can code them by hand to comply to WC3. they both get the work done, but one of them makes it faster, smoother, and less buggy

agreed here, simmilar thing ive personaly expirienced was q2. by the time i was playing it, only q2dm1 (the edge) was being played and all people that were left on the scene were über gods. it actualy took me 3 months before i scored my first FRAG (not win, just frag). Oddly, i started scoring wins a bout a week later. quake 3 even in CPM doesnt have anything near that learning curve.
wich is probably the main reason q2 and rocket arena are dieing out.

to add a bit to the move>camp.

in my opinion of the top 10 1v1 players out there (the list is my personal one, wich i kindoff made from my long time experience on r0 1v1 servers, and later from private games, etc, when the 1v1 scene tried to survive the fall of r0) only 4 are move>camp.
but of those 4, three are in top 5! and those 3 have the top 3 spots.
of the other 2 one is camp and otehr is combo player.

hm what am i trying to say with this? that move, altough not efficient anywhere but 1v1, there it is undefeatable, when used properly.

i have some gutwrenching scary demos of one of those top 3 destroying some of the e+ überplayers in maps like dm2 or tourney 3, with scores like 70:22 or simmilar. and then loosing on dm17 (something like 70:55) simply cause the other player has better aim, and he cant outmanouver him.

i think we (hm actualy digressed a bit from the topic though

in short to sumarize my toughts: e+, unlike some other q3 mods has a short learning curve, wich makes it popular amongst noobs. but the very elite top is still as hard to reach as in any other mod/game, and reserved only for the most talented and dedicated (as it should be )