'39
you are forgetting something man. Romania changed alliance very soon after the start of war and fought alongside Russia and his allies.
Romania switched to the allied side on August 23, 1944. That was after the Soviets pushed back the Germans and the front line was in Romania.
I don't know about you, but to me 1944 doesn’t look very close to the start of the war (1941-for the Russians) looks very close to the end though (1945). Anyways just wanted to clear that up…
And no man, as I said in my first post I wasn’t trying to excuse anything. I was simply saying that all countries have something they aren’t too proud of in their history, and if you judge who to trust based on that then believe me you can’t trust anyone. That being said, I firmly believe that all governments lie for their benefit, and that’s why I say, fuck politics.
@Alison & Froggy: About what they teach in Russian textbooks, I wouldn’t know. Maybe Doc, Ven or Asm could tell us what kind of "propaganda" they were taught in history class..
Romania switched to the allied side on August 23, 1944. That was after the Soviets pushed back the Germans and the front line was in Romania.
I don't know about you, but to me 1944 doesn’t look very close to the start of the war (1941-for the Russians) looks very close to the end though (1945).
Yes my memory played a trick on me, my bad, it wasnt soon after the war had started. But.....
♦ In 1940, Romania lost territory in both the east and the west. In July, after a Soviet ultimatum, Romania agreed to give up Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina" -> at that point Romania was not part of the Axis!
♦ Shortly thereafter, on 30 August, under the Second Vienna Award (or Vienna Diktat / Vienna Arbitration), Germany and Italy forced Romania to give half of Transylvania to Hungary -> at that point Romania was still not part of the Axis!
♦ In the immediate wake of the loss of Northern Transylvania, on September 4, 1940, the Iron Guard (led by Horia Sima) and General (later Marshal) Ion Antonescu united to form a "National Legionary State" government, which forced the abdication of Carol II in favor of his 19-year-old son Mihai.
♦ On November 23, 1940, Romania joined the Axis Powers.
The political decisions were made by Antonescu and he was the one to set Romania alongside the Axis. He wanted a good thing, but made the romanian people pay a too high price... Why do you think he joined up with the Axis?
--> he was hoping that by sucking up to the Germans we will get the taken part of Transylvania back.
--> he had the backup of the german troops to fight against Russia and try to get back Bessarabia and northern Bukovina.
So you see, we were thrown shit in our face from all sides, what were we supposed to do? The politicians at that time tried to find the best "middle-way". Some of their decisions are condemnable others are to be appraised but in the end they all wanted our territorial integrity and safety for the romanian people and I respect that.
You did notice that Russia actually "forced" our hand and pushed us faster into the arms of the Axis by taking Besserabia and Northern Bukovina...so you cant really blame the fact that we were fighting against Russia in the early stages of the war.
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and if you judge who to trust based on that then believe me you can’t trust anyone.
NEVER trust the russians! (politics wise)
that’s why I say, fuck politics.
Soviet Union should've never attacked Finland or get Finland into this. I'm 100% sure we would've missed the whole war if they didn't attack.
yap.. soviet union never occupied lithuania before the war. and here isnt any war
Capitalism as communism are extreme worlds which both are bad. And now we have so called "free world", western way.
Communism is the only fair choise. The anti-communism these days is cause be the faulty Soviet Union, which included things that are [b]not related to communism (spying, cencorship etc.).
:roll:
People think that 60 years after II ww nothing worst can happen, but it's happen...things which are equally horrify as IIww - and Nazi Death Camps or Soviet Gulags.
Forgotten for all world small Chechenya....riuns of old towns and villages, fear, fright, blood and death ...None of world organization "can't" (?)..., "don't know how" (?)...or " don't want"(?)....pay attention on this problem. Chechenya and people..old men, women, men, little children...this absurd conflict take them away everything they own...home, childhood, family. Every new day become a fight to survive. They forget about morality and humanity.
On the Chechenya territory are settled Death Camps called by Kremlin propaganda just " Detention". Russians kill everybody - men, women, children and pregnant women. There is no escape from that place. The one who get there never get out. By first rotation they kill a little children who in the future could become a successor of Maschadow or Dudajew and will revenge. Every day on the streets of Grozny- the capital of Chechenya- are traped by special forces and put in to the camps and tortured. The only way to released is death.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?search=&mode=related&v=K71SsgYW2B0
I dont wanna go deeper into this thread, i did read it, and it reminded me just too much to my school days. So, i wont join for further comments.
Just wanted to say, The Deaths smattering of knowledge doesn't suit in this thread.
Guys now i tell you my view.
First of all, theoretical and practical is very different. I just ask for the guys who discussed it: Have you ever lived in a communistic state?
For me, i was actually born in a very communistic state and my parents grew up there. You can tell me what you want, but communism will not work. It's not about wether it CAN work...sure it can work...but it won't.
The human being is designed on satisfying it's natural needs and so it will naturally try to do everything to reach that. In addition things only work if someone earns by the work he's doing. No inventions...stagnation will be result..
One could try it but i say we all go down then..
About war...what can i say...it's just proving what i just wrote...everybody tried to get best for his ass...
Maybe you lough, but imo best way would be if everybody would live in a christian way...not referring to god, but to the way of acting..giving and taking, being responsable and taking care of other people..
Regards,
Absti
I'm a Swede...
Our leaders chickened out in that war
But quite a few of us fought alongside the fins...
Unfortunally many swedes were Germanfriendly too
Non fighting though...
But still, a sad time in our history Imho!
I dont wanna go deeper into this thread, i did read it, and it reminded me just too much to my school days. So, i wont join for further comments.
Just wanted to say, The Deaths smattering of knowledge doesn't suit in this thread.
Ok then, generally I wanted to pay attention on Chechenyan's problem and compare Death Camps to the Nazi Death Camps, I see no diffrences between cause there was genocide and here is genocide...simply. If you don't understand that you have my compassion.
I'm studing Politology and History at the University and I know this subjects very well so don't tell that I have smattering knowledge in this them, I can asure I haven't.
cya
Mina i guess many know about Chechynya situation long time...but no one starts to handle because no one wants to get angry with russia...it's like with china and tibet..