Yeah well can't say you're wrong really, I guess it's just a tough matter where there is no perfect solution. Some rules are easier to set and enforce, some are "fairer" (but most of us have different opinions of what is fair) and some probably aren't good at all. I believe my view just comes from fear or something. I mean, seven years ago I was fifteen, sucked at games and called nice people in top teams cheaters when they way outskilled me in every aspect. It would just have sucked so bad IF I had been a real asshole then and done something stupid, and then years later when I'm atleast somewhat more mature and definitely a better player I would have no chance to return to what I have loved for over half of my life. Sure getting a new nick is a possibility (not anymore for me ) but people are being traced back all the time ("Hey man, I couldn't help but notice that you share E-Mail with a user on another forum who happens to go by the same name as a banned cheater here"), the fear of putting a lot of effort into starting clean and working hard for a couple of months only to be "found out" later and have people go "Oh it was you? FO then! Once a cheater, always a cheater!"

*confession* Nice people, even with a horrible past, being treated badly and not given a chance even how hard they try is almost the only thing that can make me cry in movies I guess I'm too emo for this subject then

Been a good discussion though I think, valid points from all sides.

That's nice, elaborate rules!

For point six, and mostly the last part of it, it's absolutely cool with me. To be honest I'll play anybody who can give me a demo afterwards I'd also be willing to watch these if there's a need for that (suspicious player doing suspiciously well).

Seven and eight are too vague though. Who hasn't got an md5tool mismatch for whatever reason? Just lagging out at the wrong moment can cause one if I'm not mistaking. So it has to be a "real" message which clearly indicates that something cheat related has been tampered with.

Also I don't know how cvar checking works here, but we can't just say "one cvar kick and you've used one of your chances" because even in my first (or second) game in DNA one of our players was kicked for trying to put a higher cg_fov than allowed xD Hardly a cheat, same thing with accidentally putting a number too much or little in a netsetting like snaps.

So just, elaborate on that and I'm sure there would be less misunderstandings because there will always be some people going crazy as soon as they see some one kicked in the console and won't bother finding out why.

As for voting, I'll see if anyone else in SWE has time to think about this, can't/won't say anything on behalf of the clan at all without Hard having a look.

-edit-
Oh and I love the part about clans covering a bust. Good thing you thought about that, because clans knowingly readding, hiding and defending cheaters ruined several cups in SoF2, including on Nations and EuroCup level. It's incredibly sad.

wrote:

*confession* Nice people, even with a horrible past, being treated badly and not given a chance even how hard they try is almost the only thing that can make me cry in movies I guess I'm too emo for this subject then

Agree totally, and if I had proof the cheater genuinely has changed and realised he/she made a mistake, I would be the first to try support them in rehabilitation and acceptance.

The problem lays in the fact that online you live and die by your actions more than in real life

The director of the movie can make sure you know that the person who has done wrong but genuinely wants to do right, its painted for you. If in the same movie the guy said he was not doing wrong anymore but his actions on screen seemed to show he was, would you cry of feel anger at the character ?
In the movie you are believing the director/Script writer etc, to show you the truth not the actor (though he has his part to play)

The correlation between gaming by mostly kids and real crime is a non starter and a lost battle form the off. I can see people thinking the whole time "ffs its only a game" true, and if non of us talked while gaming and didn’t interact it probably wouldn’t mater so much. well not to me. I would just go find a server/game where I thought people didn’t. But its more than that. There have been several "meets" most recent the potentially great "London meet" that although lacked the numbers to make it a quality piss up was enjoyed by sub and yas. so it is more real than just avatars

hmm I think im typing on auto pilot now and loosing the point,
Suffice to say, its only a game and yes, cheating seems rare theses days. Thanks to more servers using PB started mainly by mows bold move to enable PB 24/7 on most of his servers. I still think though because of the factors of personal friendships that evolve and need more believe in friendship than in real life and the fact that I wouldn’t trust a guy that burgled my house then ask him watch it the next time I went on holiday, once let alone twice makes me a hard person to convince that a cheater won’t cheat again. (yes I know I used a real crime to explain and seemingly contradicted myself, but its just an example and its the punishment that you cant crossover)

Maybe because im older than most here I have become more cynical, I dunno, But I give my trust freely, if its abused it cant be bought. It can only be given again, and that takes a lot. But all this is about the decisions will of the community, that’s what will ultimately prevail.

......although torz i used your quote as a talking point this is not pointed at you, I’ve yet to see an unbalanced post form you and although you are new(ish) here, you are one of a few people that make me think about and question my thoughts.